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Feb 21 16 1:16 PM

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Hi managed to get a game in (http://sgtsteiner.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/general-de-brigade-game-played-france.html) and a query arose.

Is a unit of deployed/un limbered artillery classed as a Close Order unit/target ?

We found this needed an answer not defined in rules (as far as we could tell ?) in regards to Priority Targets (ie nearest close order unit in arc) and regarding permissable targets of charges when under Engage orders (ie can Inf charge or not as not allowed to charge close order units)

Cheers
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#1 [url]

Feb 21 16 1:48 PM

Hi,

That's a good question.

I've always said that a close-order unit is only ever infantry or cavalry when in column or line so deployed artillery wouldn't be.

Wonder what others think?

Cheers,

Paul

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#3 [url]

Feb 21 16 3:03 PM

Hi,


Re:"Limbered Arty and Massed Arty are both noted as being 'Normal Close Order Targets' but un limbered not defined ?"

Yep, aware of this but I thought that the priority table was primarily about "threat" to the firer so close-order infantry or cavalry units within charge range would certainly qualify as presumably would deployed artillery, despite the fact that deployed artillery are a less dense target.

Of course it may be that the priority target logic is also about historical accuracy and not wasting ammunition on firing at skirmishers?

Maybe the answer is a more detailed priority list e.g.

For Infantry or Artillery Firing:

a) Close order infantry firing at you, or cavalry or infantry in charge range - your choice.

b) Artillery firing at you.

c) Otherwise whatever is judged to be the greatest threat.

d) If no real threat then as the 10.5.3 says on page 94.

This is what I normally do in my games.

Cheers,

Paul







 

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#5 [url]

Feb 22 16 12:03 AM

Hi

In addition to the shooting priorities query we also encountered a situation were 2 artillery units were in front line and were approached by Inf under Engage orders. Engage orders stipulate that Inf cannot charge close order units ?
Hence we were confused as to wethther the guns could be charged or not ? I know Assault order would have remedied this but that was how things panned out as I failed to change the advancing infantry order.

Cheers

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#6 [url]

Feb 22 16 1:33 AM

SgtSteiner,

My understanding is that an Infantry Brigade on an Engage order, battalions may not charge a formed artillery battery unless ordered by the CnC who was within command range of the infantry unit.  

I consider a battery unformed when it is limbered, limbering/unlimbering, faltered from a double six, or hasn't yet reformed after a Broken Brigade, and could be charged by an infantry battalion as an unformed unit.

God bless,
John T.

Last Edited By: John Tyson Feb 22 16 1:42 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#7 [url]

Feb 22 16 2:27 AM

Sorry gents but I don't completely understand the confusion over this issue as it is clearly stated in the artillery definitions (2.9) : Limbered = a normal close order target (no modifier) Deployed = guns deployed for firing (-2 target modifier), and Massed Artillery = (0). 


Accordingly, regarding the original question; deployed artillery is not a close order target. So, in the original example infantry under an Engage order could attack deployed artillery (providing it met all the command and control requirement vis a vis its commanding general's radius or exercised its initiative under 7.2 if outside the command radius).

My confusion is about Massed Artillery as it has the same target modifier as limbered artillery (normal close order target) but is deployed albeit in mass. I am assuming it is in the same category as deployed artillery because it is deployed as well but in mass as opposed to normally deployed artillery, which is more spread out.

Cheers, 
Rod

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#8 [url]

Feb 22 16 9:08 AM

Bonjour Gents,


John and Rod both make good points.

The issue in essence is about both formation and unit type,

So, for example, skirmishers are never a close order target so could be charged by infantry on an Engage order even when formed.

Deployed artillery are a formed unit and I have never allowed infantry on an Engage order to charge them. This is because despite the fact that they are deployed and more spread-out they remain a close-order unit, and, the same of course applies to infantry deployed in Grand Bandes.

Whether you can charge a limbered artillery when you are a unit on an Engage order is interesting as they are a formed close order unit but they would be a tempting target! Nevertheless, I'd say you can't as the overarching principle is that on Engage you don't charge formed units.

Good to have discussions like this.

Cheers,

Paul

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#9 [url]

Feb 22 16 2:01 PM

Hmmm confusion reigns eh :-)

Almost seems as if deployed guns count as a sort of open order target when shot at but less clear as charge target ?

If classed as Close Order then same charge/order rules apply as any other close order unit but if open order it would seem odd they could be charged when deployed but not when limbered

Might be easiest to class them as close order for charging purposes

Cheers
 

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#11 [url]

Feb 23 16 1:22 AM

Hi SgtSteiner,

I believe that limbered artillery is to be considered a close ordered target for firing purposes only. Doubt anybody during the Napoleonic Wars would have considered a limbered artillery an equal threat to close ordered infantry or cavalry. However, although I have been a soldier, I was not a soldier during the Napoleonic Wars--even though I was told that when I was a soldier I didn't need hearing protection because my army only used catapults and archers. That was a lie. ;-)

God bless,
John T.

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