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Jan 26 07 8:41 AM

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Chaps,

After an incredibly long lay off from Napoleonics I'm comencing a new project. The last Napoleonics completed were Silesian Landwehr. Well I've finally finished my ECW cavalry before work, this morning. So I've decided to return to my main project in the Peninsular as the 200th anniversarys of Rolica and Vimerio are not far off now, so I'd better get a move on. Quatre Bras and Waterloo will have to wait !

First in line are the French Grenadiers for Vimerio, shown in the Osprey book of the battle to be wearing 'off white greatcoats/dust jackets. Has anybody done these 4 battalions already, or do you just pinch the grenadier companies from your line battalions ? They numbered 2,100 men under Kellerman I think. So I'll be doing 4 battalions of 24 figures, and a few extra officer figures to make up the numbers to 105 figures, using the Elite Minitures greatcoat figure in campaign dress with epaulettes. Any hints or tips or further uniform information would be much appreciated, whilst undercoating is in progress. The Osprey shows all wearing the pale coat but I suspect that this is probably artistic licence, and would ALL have worn their red epaulettes outside the coat ?

Thanks in advance for any information

Simon W

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#1 [url]

Jan 27 07 11:17 AM

French linen frocks or smocks

Simon

Hi. There’s a nice plate in Windrow and Embleton if you have it or can access it. Plate 12, 86e Ligne. I have been trying to find out where I read it again, but he cites British onlookers at Vimeiro who noticed the white (not blue) clad French advancing. The fusilier in the plate is depicted as wearing a “white” linen frock or smock coat. It is open at the front – but not unlike a great coat in appearance. From recollection, some great coats I've seen are a bit thick looking. But I do recall a nice Connoisseur figure (and Hinchcliffe, but they'd be a bit small for the rest of your troops) – and have seen these on one or two tables and they do look good although they have been mixed in with figures in habites etc. As the material would appear to have been natural linen I would guess they’d be off white. I do recall reading at least one eye witness mentioning the red distinctions, although I think he calls them shoulder knots as opposed to epaulettes, worn by the grenadiers in the final attack – but it is not clear from this account that they wore these over a smock. I’ll keep digging – I have other sources somewhere.

Ant

Sprűnglin

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#2 [url]

Jan 29 07 8:00 AM

Thanks Sprunglin ! I knew you would come through as I know from previous posts that this is your area of expertise !

I'm having a serious rethink though, do I really want 4 24 figure battalions all in off white overcoats ??? Especially as when reading up on the grenadiers at Fuentes de Onoro, there were three battalions of 18 companies of 'reserve grenadiers' draw from all the battalions of 9th corps. Now these included light infantry sooooo... some of them must have been light infantry Carabineer companies, and eyewitness reports said they were wearing 'bearskins' as some british thought they were up against imperial guard ! As you know nly the Gd light cavalry and a horse artillery battery were actually present.

So I'm now considering doing mixed up grenadier companies in the 4 battalions with only some in off white overcoats 'a la campaign' with differnt uniforms mixed together, but I'm not going to mix grenadiers in bearskins with grenadiers in covered shakos, it will offend my eye

Thanks again.

Simon W

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#5 [url]

Jan 30 07 7:04 PM

Guard at Vimeiro

Hi

I have the English translated version of Foy: Junot’s Invasion of Portugal 1807 – 1808. There’s no mention of guard cavalry or artillery in the OB on pp 7-9. Neither is there a mention for the 1st Corps of Observation of the Gironde “Army of Portugal” in Oman Vol I, appendices VI p 612. did they join the army after its arrival in Portugal?

Ant

Sprűnglin

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#7 [url]

Jan 31 07 1:56 PM

Guard Cavalry at Fuentes De Oñoro

Hi Andy

Yes, sorry. I just re-read your post and saw “Fuentes”. Oman, Vol IV, Appendix XII, Fuentes De Oñoro May 3 – 5 1811

Army of the North, Marshal Bessières, Lepic’s Brigade of Guard Cavalry

Lancers
Chasseurs
Mamelukes
Grenadiers à cheval

They must make for a nice brigade on the table top, what do you think?

I had some notes from a contribution I made to thread started by Digby Smith on Napoleon Series – thought it might be of interest to you guys.

Not only is there a guard cavalry element with Masséna, as you correctly point out Andy, at Fuentes de Oñoro, they are also present with Marmont’s army put together to relieve the blockade and siege of Ciudad Rodrigo in autumn of that year. See Oman Vol IV p 563 and 564 for the combat of Carpio on the Azava just prior to El Bodon.

Oman says that the French cavalry advanced with eight squadrons and left six in reserve beside Carpio. The 14th and 16th gave back towards the woods and their infantry supports, upon which Wathier halted four of his squadrons and brought forward the remaining four “this advance guard consisted of the Lancers of Berg and the 26th chasseurs" (although in Appendix XII he lists the 24th chasseurs)

He cites Tomkinson, Diary p 115 noting it was the first time that British Cavalry had encountered lancers; Tomkinson was not impressed. They were fired upon by the light companies of the 11th, 61st and 53rd line infantry and then broken by a charge of the light dragoons and chased back over the Azava – so must have been pushed back beyond their supports – at least those that had crossed the river - see footnote 1 p 564

Ant

Sprűnglin

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#9 [url]

Feb 1 07 7:59 AM

Yes they are all on my 'must do before i die' list aswell ! Then I plan to build them up to full strength units for quatre bra and waterloo ! So much to paint, so little time to paint . The Lancers de Berg will make a nice unit.

Would you guys 'game' with the guard cavalry commanded by Bessieres as a single unit for morale purposes, my Osprey also lists 80 mamelukes ( 4 figures )

Simon W

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#10 [url]

Feb 1 07 9:35 AM

I would be tempted to have a large squadron of each, Lancers, Chasseurs a Cheval/Mamelukes, Horse Grenadiers. Looking at the Lancers of the Berg found out that the uniform was not the nice white with pink facings but the green with red facings (want to do them less now!)

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#11 [url]

Feb 1 07 10:34 AM

Hi,

Well they are brigaded together in all sources I've seen. The brigade is the single largest brigade in either the Army of Portugal or the Army of the North at Fuentes de Onoro, the majority of the other light cavalry brigades are much smaller as are the two brigades of dragoons (individually). Oman lists

Lancers 30 340
Chasseurs 13 222
Mamelukes 10 69
Grenadiers à cheval 12 185
65 offices and 816 other ranks

Reading up on the reorganisation Massena undertook prior to Fuentes de Onoro, he had reduced most if not all of his cavalry to two squadrons, and some only one, sending the cadres back to Bayonne for remounts.

Taking between 100 to 120 as being the lowest possible number of officers and other ranks for a unit to continue to function as a squadron, IMO the brigade might comprise eight small squadrons or possibly four or five large squadrons (with a small unit of mamelukes attached?) Think I'd go for eight smaller squadrons

Bessieres has two brigades of cavalry Lepic and Wathier, for Lepic's appointment to the command of the guard cavalry in Spain see:

Correspondance inédite de Napolón Ier: conservée aux Archives de la guerre
by Napoleon, Ernest Picard, Louis Tuetey - H. Charles-Lavauzelle p 530

http://books.google.com/books?q=lepic&id=bbQ6ADXNXlMC&vid=LCCN13023905&dq=lepic+berg&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&pgis=1

Ant

Sprűnglin

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RMD

Rifleman

Posts: 481

#12 [url]

Feb 1 07 2:30 PM

The Mamelukes were adminisratively (and usually also tactically) part of the Chasseurs a Cheval, so just treat them as an extra (fancy) squadron od that regiment.

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#13 [url]

Feb 2 07 7:58 AM

Thanks guys, I think I'll go for

Lancers 2 squadrons of 9 figs = 18 Fig unit

Chasseurs 2 squadrons of 6figs + 4 Mamelukes = 16 Fig unit

Grenadiers 1 squadron of 10 Figs unit

This also allows for the different unit types to be taken into account ie, lancers , lights, and heavy cavalry.

Anyone know of a source for a good 25/28mm Mameluke figure ?

Simon W

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#14 [url]

Feb 2 07 10:00 AM

Simon,

Hi – I don’t know what they’re like, but I was looking for some for myself some time ago and remembered I'd seen this site. It says they’re 25-28mm: but there’s no pictures for French Napoleonics - although there’s a pdf catalogue you can down load. They do appear to have a wide range covering officers, troopers, standard, musicians etc. Not sure about how good they are from the website, maybe someone else can advise

http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?page=5&cName=french-cavalry&sort=1a

I'm off to vapnartak on Sunday - I'll ask around for you

http://www.yorkwargames.org/vapnartak.htm

Best wishes

Ant

Sprűnglin

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#15 [url]

Feb 5 07 5:34 PM

Thanks for that, sorry for delay my home PC was playing up at the weekend, and the internet has been slow all day at the office...

Maybe the Perries will do some, though I would prefer Front Rank or Elite Miniatures, it's the old eyesight you know

Simon W

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