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Oct 25 02 5:05 PM

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In a game recently the "double 6 & risk to general", Chapter 13 threw up the following conundrum. When rolling on the RISK TO GENERAL TABLE, a 3 was rolled resulting in the nearest enemy general being captured and presented to the enemy C in C.

Unfortunately for the French player his C in C was nearest, followed by his ADC and finally a Brigade General, note all three command figures were in base to base contact. Obviously the French C in C was heartbroken and pleaded with his Russian counterpart to take his Brigade General instead. Being a neutral(I was on the other flank) I was prepared to let the French C in C dice, after all the 3 figures were in base to base contact with each other. However as the rules state the nearest enemy general is removed and the French C in C pleadings were beginning to annoy me, we ruled that his C in C should be removed.

Was this right?

[This message has been edited by Tim (edited 25 October 2002).]
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#1 [url]

Oct 25 02 6:22 PM


Hi Tim

Ofcourse we were right.

Kutusov

ps For the others I captured him and he was annoying me even more.

[This message has been edited by Kutusov (edited 26 October 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Kutusov (edited 26 October 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Kutusov (edited 26 October 2002).]

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#2 [url]

Oct 26 02 10:35 PM

quote:Originally posted by Kutusov:
[This message has been edited by Kutusov (edited 26 October 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Kutusov (edited 26 October 2002).]

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#3 [url]

Oct 26 02 11:37 PM

Hey All,

Well the way i see it, is if you take the bonus for there command value and your foolish enough to place them in a position of danger (which i do quite a lot - brave french) Then you have to be ready to pay the price.

It shouldn't have happend to a French general (but thats a rule i need to discuss with Dave image)

The rules are the rules and somthime we all lose... that day was his and for moaning at an excessive level the adc and GdB should have been caught to image

Neil

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#6 [url]

Dec 8 02 10:00 PM

Yes,
As the crow flies my divisional general was closest by about 2mm. He had moved up to orgaise the second wave of French cavalry. The brigade general was the only figure of the group of 3 able to observe the rear of the combat and consequently the only one visible. There was an intervening dense wood concealing the brave divisional commander and his ADC.
However, if the rule is applied as previously discussed then so be it. I'll console myself with a Chunky Kit Kat.

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DCRBrown

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#7 [url]

Dec 9 02 11:16 AM

All,

I know the rules don't actually specify the problems of intervening terrain - BUT if for instance the nearest general was screened by a building or village you may wish to consider the next nearest general who's in a slightly more vulnerable position.

Or perhaps fall back to a die roll to see which one is the unfortunate target?

DB

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#8 [url]

Dec 9 02 5:22 PM

As we were using 25mm figures and The Commander and his ADC were sitting in base to base contact with the brigade commander (DC.ADC.BC)and the DC was nearest, 2mm didn't come into it.
The DC should never of been in the position he was in at the back of the unit,in the middle of a charge and melee if you put your CC there to get the +'s you've got to accept the risk.Other wise Wellington and Napoleon will be leading charges next.
(And from my memory I'm sure both Wellington and Napoleon were nearly captured by being to near the fighting at the front and being in the wrong place at the wrong time (Fate) so as Dales fond of quoting history at us to prove things!) IT's Tough but thats life

[This message has been edited by Kutusov (edited 09 December 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Kutusov (edited 09 December 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Kutusov (edited 09 December 2002).]

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#9 [url]

Dec 9 02 5:42 PM

To continue the discussion.
If I understand this right, the French player wanted the benefit of having his CinC in base to base contact with his GdeB,to recieve morale and change of order benefits. Are we then to believe that he then suddenly disappears when the musket balls and shells start dropping. I must agree with Elin & Kutusov, the CinC must go.

After thought, I wasn't aware that the results on the Risk to General table were dependent upon whether the General could be seen or not, after all a suspicous fire incident could occur anywhere on the table!
I think the moral of the story is to look after your CinC.

[This message has been edited by Sir Henry (edited 10 December 2002).]

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#10 [url]

Dec 9 02 7:45 PM

Hey All image

Sir Henry, I'm glad you agree image

This Sunday a similar event happened when:

At the begining of the game the Russian player allocated his general to his Heavy guns, stating as much.

When I broke with my tradition of never engaging in counter battery fire and rolled a double 6, aganst his heavies......well now the general was not attached!

So after an amicable discussions along the lines of well if you never moved him and have no orders writen to the contary then he is still attached and HERE in the rules (pointing in the book image) is the result!

So after a few mor minutes of pondering and explaining that if you want the benifit then take the risk...... So the end ressult was nothing too much to worry about and did not need to slow the game down at all. 5 causualties 1 gun removed and the result from the risk to general was poor...He went to report to the provost after a light wound image

So It can happen at any time and I think it's very fair (even when i lose mine) and after all his general had a wound he could be proud of and tell his grand children that nasty old bonapartte tried to kill him as he was valiently defending mother russia image

Elin

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#11 [url]

Dec 9 02 10:06 PM

Thanks for your reply Dave.The two options you suggest were also the two I suggested during the game discussed but neither was acceptable to Kutusov.
For the record, the French brigade commander had just joined the div. com.and the order from the French perspective was BC ADC DC with only the BC able to observe the stramash.
I was prepared to accept the weight of opinion when it appeared to run against my own view (see my earlier note) and naturally I am happy to abide by your ruling now Dave. I'm sure club members will too.

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#12 [url]

Dec 10 02 4:52 PM

After reading all the posts I feel Kutuzov
would of allowed the player to keep his divisional commander if he hadn't as appears to of been the case so close to the brigade commander and the troops in melee.

I think you have to use a bit of common sense here.

If both the DC and the BC are good way from the cause of the double 6 throw and the DC is nearer but behind a building or village with the BC in a more visible position then as DCRB suggests I think most players would play fair and take the BC or dice for it.

I wonder if Dale D Smith would of received any support from his fellow commanders if the nearest visible BC had belonged to someone else and to save his DC they'd to lose their general.

Dale D Smith appears to have been looking for a way out of a mess he's got himself into by moving his DC so close to the action
for the benefit of the +2 for being in base to base contact with the BC.


[This message has been edited by percy (edited 10 December 2002).]

[This message has been edited by percy (edited 10 December 2002).]

[This message has been edited by percy (edited 14 December 2002).]

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#13 [url]

Dec 10 02 7:33 PM

Thanks for your comments Percy. You are of course right. Common sense should have prevailed, but it didn't. The DC couldn't even see the melee and no-one in the melee could see him because of the intervening dense wood. The brigade already had it's orders so the DC was not going to have any direct effect. As I've said before I'm happy to abide by Dave's ruling and your own suggestion to use a bit of common sense.

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#14 [url]

Dec 14 02 9:49 AM

Having read the results that can be obtained when rolling on the Risk to General table it is clear to me that most of the results can occur anywhere on the field of combat. Friendly fire incident, horse startled and blunder into enemy lines etc. The argument that the said commander is 'hidden' from view is irrelevant.

I still maintain that if a CinC is placed in a position that is or would be advatageous to the player, then that player must also accept the fact that the CinC should be open to undesirable effects.

I think its time that the lowly Brigade generals were given a fair deal. If the attack went well the CinC would claim his victory, however if the attack failed the poor GdeB would be blammed. Lets make it fair and make the CinC responsible for his actions, I reckon the nearest general, irrespective of intervening terrain should always go. After all it makes for a much more interesting game!

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#15 [url]

Dec 14 02 10:59 AM

When we have had a general hit 'through' intervening terain, I have justified it by saying that the figure shows the centre of the general's activity - he could well be roaming within that area inspiring the troops or getting a view of the battlefield. After all, if a Divisional commander is changing a brigade's orders, it might be useful for him to know where the enemy are and what the ground is like. Difficult if he has a hill in the way.
OTOH, if one knows that the opposition are likely to be strict about priority of distance, make sure the DC isn't the closest - put him behind the BG that is receiving the orders.
And yes, I have been on the receiving end of a DC being killed, and that was just as a particularly successful charge was going in. The DC was further back than other generals and out of the general arc of fire, but he ws about 1cm closer than the nearest BG.

Swampster

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#16 [url]

Dec 14 02 9:37 PM

I agree with Sir Henry and Swampsters General comments if you stick you CC where the action is for various reasons including getting the plus's or you forget to look out for him as the game changes then you should be prepared to take what the dice may throw at you.
Swampsters comment that what the figure of the general marks the centre of the generals activity is an interesting idea and its ties in with the change of orders system I mean really we have nothing in the rules stopping the CC changing the orders of units and commanders who may be hidden by hills woods ect but within the allowed command radius.

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#17 [url]

Dec 15 02 12:03 PM

It would appear that I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest with this one. As always I only ask questions which I believe are pertinent to my understanding of the rules and hence my enjoyment of the hobby.

I tend to agree with swampsters point about terrain and positioning of commanders, etc. The whole point of intervening terrain should be considered irrelevant, I presume the rules are trying to simulate(very well) the following circumstances:

The CinC is personally delivering the bigade order changes (i.e. in game terms base to base contact with GdeB) and as such the CinC is in a more vulnerable position.

Or the CinC has sent a messenger to deliver the brigade order changes (i.e. in game terms not in base to base contact with GdeB), and the CinC should be in a less hazardous position.

I would suggest that if the situation I outlined at the start of this thread occurs again that the highest ranking commander is always considered at risk under the loss to general table. (It wouldn't always result in his loss though). That way, people will take more care over how and where they position their commanders.

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#18 [url]

Dec 15 02 7:00 PM

"I would suggest that if the situation I outlined at the start of this thread occurs again that the highest ranking commander is always considered at risk under the loss to general table. (It wouldn't always result in his loss though). That way, people will take more care over how and where they position their commanders."

Perhaps a middle course could be taken and if there are two generals in a group then roll randomly to see the target. I wouldn't count ADCs - I prefer not to "deploy" these until required as they are part of the COs staff until then and have no independent function. I suspect we might see ADCs throwing themselves in front of their commanders to save them otherwise.

Swampster

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