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Mar 8 09 8:54 AM

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Can anyone help me identify which standards were carried by the VA & MD continental regiments at Guilford Courthouse.I would like to order some standards from the Flagdude (great flags) but was unsure of what to order. I am just staring my Guilford Courthouse project and any help would be appreciated. I bought my first few regiments from Perry (awesome minis) and just finished the skirmishers in Webster's and Poor's brigades and now it's on to the rank and file......thanks for any help.
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#1 [url]

Mar 15 09 12:53 PM

It is hard (for me at least) to find out with any certainty what units carried what flags in the Continental Army; Guilford is no exception.

The 3rd Maryland carried a "Besty Ross" style flag at Cowpens, with an additional star in the center of the circle of stars. So that flag might be a possibility. There are pictures of an American Guilford Courthouse flag, an interesting adaptation of the Besty Ross. It has red and blue stripes and a white background for the stars in the corner. This may have been a militia flag or maybe Green's flag???

So for my Continentals at Guilford I plan to go with the standard Besty Ross style, although if I can find a GMB flag for Maryland Regiment at Cowpens then I will use that one too not to mention the Guilford flag.

Good luck with the armies. Guilford is my next project. If you are interested in Guilford I suggest you get "Long, Obstinate and Bloody." It is the best study on the battle I have read.

Mike B

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#2 [url]

Mar 15 09 1:15 PM

Sorry, it's taken me a while to "break into" this thread.

Try Ed Richardson's "Standards and Colors of the American Revolution" - probably OOP now, so you may have to try the public library, but there might be copies floating around on Amazon etc. Probably represents the entire reliable knowledge on the subject of AWI flags.

Be very, very wary of anything to do with the Betsy Ross legend - it all seems to be based on an interview with her grand-daughter many years later. Get alternative sources if you are looking for total authenticity.

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#3 [url]

Mar 15 09 6:16 PM

Mr. Ronan ... Sir,

The "Besty Ross" is the stars and stripes flag adopted by the Continental Congress in 1776 (I think)? It has the 13 stars in a cicle within a blue field in the upper corner of the flag and the red and white stripes. Are you saying that that flag is inaccurate or that the story that Besty Ross designed it is inaccurate?

I don't know who sewed it ... Or invented it ... Maybe Washington?? But it did exist as the "national" flag did it not?

Thanks for the clarification

Mike B

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#4 [url]

Mar 15 09 7:52 PM

The story that Betsy Ross sewed the first flag is unproven (and probably unprovable). Although, there exists documentation that she had sewn a flag for the Pennsylvania State Navy prior to the introduction of the Stars and Stripes, there is no conclusive evidence that she was the manufacturer of what has come to be known as the Betsy Ross Flag. Furthermore, she is almost most certainly not the flags designer (as distinguished from the flag's manufacturer). As Ronan has explained, the Betsy Ross story relies heavily on family tradition as retold by her grand daughter much much later. What we do know is that she was a flag maker at the time the first US stars and strips flag was made, and she was located a scant few blocks away from the seat of government. However, she wasn't the only flag maker at that time and in that area ... so in the end we do not know for certain who made it.

Resolved that the Flag of the United States be 13 stripes alternate red and white,
that the Union be 13 stars white in a blue field representing a new constellation"
- Continental Congress; June 14, 1777

It is also worth noting that the original specs for the national flag did not define a pattern for the stars. Some now believe that the stars on first flag were laid out in a grid, though I have my doubts about that. Perhaps it's just me being stubborn, but I subscribe to the traditional belief that the original flag had the stars arranged in a circle. It is quite clear the circular configuration was used during the war; the contention is whether it was the first, and not merely among the first.

I believe the Battle of Brandywine was the first major engagement in which the flag was flown. However, this may just be the first land engagement. Hrmmm, as a matter of fact, something in the back of my mind is telling me that the flag was originally intended for the navy and that its use on land by the army was only officially authorized decades later. Authorized or not, it was used on land during the AWI ... so don't let that legalistic detail deter its use in historical depiction. I will leave it to the mighty Ronan to strike down my recollection if it's in error.

Then let us fill a bumper, and drink a health to those
Who carry caps and pouches, and wear the loup'ed clothes.

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#5 [url]

Mar 15 09 8:03 PM

The short answer is that the flag you refer to was (in general terms) devised by Congress's Marine Committee, the main purpose of national flags at that time being simply to identify ships at sea. Great story though it is, dear old Betsy had nothing to do with it and it's probably up there with the story of Washington and the cherry tree.

In 1775, a Congressional committee (Benjamin Franklin, Benjamin Harrison, and Thomas Lynch) consulted Washington on a design for a Continental flag, which resulted in the Royal Navy-style red ensign with six horizontal white strips (often referred to as the Grand Union Flag of the United Colonies, or occasionally the Continental Union) that was flown at Boston. The DoI made British symbology unacceptable, so another committee (Washington, Robert Morris and George Ross) was established in June 1776 to find an emblem acceptable to all 13 Colonies. However, the Marine Committee beat them to it, and Congress passed the Flag Resolution on 14 June 1777. This specified that the flag be a field with 13 horizontal red and white stripes, and a canton containing thirteen white stars on a blue field. As so often with momentous pieces of legislation, the wording was ambiguous - until the mid-19th century, the flag could have more white stripes than red, and stars with six, seven or even eight points (in fact, all previous versions of the flag remain legal, as none were ever abolished as new versions were authorised). Examples of the Maritime flag actually flown include a mix of red white and blue stripes, so even those details that were officially agreed were often ignored.

In September 1779, Washington was being asked to suggest a variation that might be used by the Continental Army, and as the equivalent of the British King's Colour (why they didn't use his HQ flag I don't know). Dark blue was agreed for the field, and appropriate cloth - along with facing-coloured cloth for the "regimental colour" - was issued to the regiments as part of the 1779 Clothing Regulations. Unfortunately, no "national emblem" was agreed for the blue flag before the war ended (there are suggestions the eagle was considered, which of course was later adopted by the US Army). As well as debunking the Betsy Ross story, historians have also discounted the claims that the Maritime flag was flown at Bennington, Stanwix, or Mud Island - in fact, all three appear to have been variations on the Grand Union, but with red, white and blue stripes, and no small Union in the canton.

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#6 [url]

Mar 16 09 2:05 AM

3d Maryland

I don't recall the 3d Maryland being present at Cowpens in January 1781. Nor was there a 3d Maryland at Guilford Courthouse the following March. John Eager Howard commanded a composite Maryland/Delaware light infantry battalion at Cowpens, but as to a 3d Maryland, I have seen no reference to it.

Gassendi

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#7 [url]

Mar 16 09 12:05 PM

When searching for flags for Guilford CH, I can across several sites that mentioned the Maryland flag. Here is one of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowpens_flag

........... I know that you have to take stuff from the web with a grain of salt, but this does seem credible. There were three (??) companies of Maryland Continentals at Cowpens ... Maybe one of these companies carried the flag.

You asked for help with Guilford flags ... This seems to be a possibility.

Mike B

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#8 [url]

Mar 16 09 7:10 PM

I think the key points in the Betsy Ross myth are that she was related to a person who was involved in flag design, and that she had already made a naval flag (which is what the first "stars and stripes" was).

Personally - and it is only my opinion - I doubt this specific design was used by the Continental Army for the following reasons, although some combinations of stars and stripes were used in the field and have been recorded (including contemporary illustrations by opponents):-

1) Our mindset in terms of the universality of a national flag was not shared back then - indeed, was not even known, as such flags were almost exclusively used for ships.

2) The Continental Army was an independent institution and would have wanted its own flag - in fact, Washington was asked to produce a variant of the Maritime Committee's design for the Continental Army.

3) Unlike the Continental Navy, the Continental Army was made up of disparate elements from each State, which were very proprietorial right through to the end of the war. This kind of individualism extended into the HQs of the various field armies, which would be far more likely to use a "national" flag than the individual regiments anyway.

4) A number of regiments seem to have adopted Charles Lee's idea of a single regimental colour (usually matching the facings), supplemented by two, or even four, "divisional" colours (red, white, blue and buff - the facing colours adopted in the 1779 Regs).

Unfortunately, a lot of paintings of incidents in the AWI (eg Trumbull and Peale) were done after the war and there is more than a suggestion that contemporary flags were used as models. For example, there is an earlier version of Trumbull's "Surrender at Yorktown" in which the more traditional red and white stripes on the flag are replaced by red, white and blue stripes (Lincoln is shown bareheaded and from behind in this version and the solitary dismounted French officer is a grenadier). The depiction of the siege from Gloucester Point by a British officer shows a flag with red and blue stripes, rather than red and white.

Equally, Peale's 1779 painting of Washington as the victor of Trenton and Princeton, standing over captured Hessian flags, shows a dark blue HQ flag with a circle of white stars; however, Mercer's more naive depiction of Princeton shows the HQ flag with the stars sprinkled liberally across it, suggesting that Peale's version was either his own interpretation, or a later "tidier" version. Gates used a similar flag for his own HQ (apparently - I've never seen a design), so this may have been closer to an "army" version.

Of course, all of this is absolutely no help whatsoever to poor ptl1815!!!! Another problem with GCH units is that several were either rumps, or were recently formed (within the previous 12 months) following internal reorganisations and/or the disaster at Charleston.

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#9 [url]

Mar 16 09 8:24 PM

Ronan introduces some very good points that reduce the probability of the "Betsy Ross" flag's use by the Continental Army. However, none close the door on possibility. Here is a nice bit of research on the original Stars and Stripes by David Martucci:

http://www.vexman.net/13stars/

William Barton's seal designs (#11) suggest that the "Betsy Ross"-style design existed during the war. Though I will readily concede that a watercolor representation of the flag doesn't provide solid proof that it was ever rendered in cloth or carried by soldiers.

Personally, I believe folks over there on the far side of The Pond are worried the US will issue a cease and desist order regarding that trademark infringement occasionally known as the European Union logo.

Then let us fill a bumper, and drink a health to those
Who carry caps and pouches, and wear the loup'ed clothes.

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#10 [url]

Apr 8 09 12:44 PM

Ronan wrote:
Another problem with GCH units is that several were either rumps, or were recently formed (within the previous 12 months) following internal reorganisations and/or the disaster at Charleston.


I agree with Ronan.I'm also using GCH for the background of my american army,other then the GCH NC militia flag I've haven't found any concrete evidence of flags carried by the american units involved.
Rather then give in to frustration,I've decided to view it in the light of expermination and freedom to interpret.
For example for my CinC I might use the GCH flag itself to represent what army I'm trying to display.For my line regiments I might use versions of the "Betsy Ross" flag with different color trim to seperate the regiments and for the militia just use common slogans and maybe invent a few practical ones for some flavor.
I personally follow the lines of atmosphere over exactly correct uniforms and flags that only the very educated would know the difference.
Concentrate more on the overall apperance then on small details.Regiments that are painted well and fit the part will be forgiven inaccuracies.What I'm saying is try and get it close and then don't sweat the small stuff.

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