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Dec 30 03 6:52 PM

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Have people actually used these? It seems to me that it makes very little difference if you use the German, British & US table or the Russian & Others table. Both sides get more or less equal numbers of stuff, which of course means the Russians & Others are at a severe disadvantage.

Has any one used the points values? If so what do you think?
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#1 [url]

Dec 31 03 8:45 AM

I have had one game with points....
The only advantage the soviets get is when they buy morale grade troops that are less than regular, as their opponents tend to get regular or better class troops, meaning they have more troops.....
.....Unfortunately not enough though.
You are right in some respect....but isn't there something about the points cost of command bases being less?
It does mean that you cannot have the vast russian hordes, and that the +2 or +3 command advantage isnot weighted in the points.
I feel that a base Nationality cost would be useful, as this would take into account the command advantages/disadvantages of certain countries.

Evil Dick ;-)

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DCRBrown

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#2 [url]

Dec 31 03 10:41 AM

Hwiccee,

If you wish to purchase a Regular or better Russian type army then you are correct and you will only have a marginal advantage over a German opponent.

However as ED mentions you really need to purchase your Russians, etc, as Militia or Inexperienced, as perhaps they should be, to gain a real numerical advantage over a German player.

EG If you buy a Veteran grade Panther it will cost 160 points.
Whereas a Russian player could buy two Inexperienced T/34's and three militia sections for just 161points.

DB

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#3 [url]

Dec 31 03 7:50 PM

Hi DB,

Yes I see what you mean. But I meant that there doesn't seem to be any account taken in the points values of the various advantages different nations will have. For example the pluses to the command dice, receiving off board artillery & air support, etc. There are lots & it is one of the things I like about the rules.

You see what you suggest does not actually balance the forces. If the Germans say fielded a Security Division, or some other low quality unit, then the numbers would be about equal again. Perhaps something like Evil Dick suggests might be the way to go.

Thanks to you both for replying. Also by the way my 'Russians' are actually Italians. I enjoy a challenge and so Russians are a little 'good' for me

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#4 [url]

Dec 31 03 7:51 PM

Hi DB,

Yes I see what you mean. But I meant that there doesn't seem to be any account taken in the points values of the various advantages different nations will have. For example the pluses to the command dice, receiving off board artillery & air support, etc. There are lots & it is one of the things I like about the rules.

You see what you suggest does not actually balance the forces. If the Germans say fielded a Security Division, or some other low quality unit, then the numbers would be about equal again. Perhaps something like Evil Dick suggests might be the way to go.

Thanks to you both for replying. Also by the way my 'Russians' are actually Italians. I enjoy a challenge and so Russians are a little 'good' for me

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#5 [url]

Jan 4 04 4:18 PM

A lot of our games are based on points. I tend to buy inexperienced Russians and so get a lot for the points but, I also have a small concern about the in-built command modifiers.

I feel this represents an overall 'strategic' advantage/negative of that nation, but surely at the smaller scale that cannot always be true. There must be occasions when German inepitude or Russian quality gave a difference balance at the tactical level.

It is a little fustrating that Russians rarely achieve the initiative, irregardless whether the Russians are milita hordes or battle-experienced troops.

What about some sort of leadership rating to reflect command at a more tactical level (similar to that in GdeB)...?

NOTE: It is the issue of who gets initiative, not the total of number of command points that I feel is unfair to the Russians. The Russians vs Germans only get initiative once per six turns (pre-45).

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DCRBrown

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#6 [url]

Jan 5 04 11:44 AM

Andy,

I see your point.

Are you suggesting that we could have a grade for the HQ as well?
I'm also thinking along the lines of GdeB CinC's - excellent, average, poor.
Thus this will cater for your scenario above of a poor quality German outfit struggling against a good quality Russian of Brit battlegroup?

If you wished to use points to assist you could have something along the lines of:
100 = Poor (No Modifier).
200 = Average (+1 Modifier).
300 = Excellent (+2 Modifier).
OR
75 = Poor.
150 = Average.
250 = Excellent.

DB

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#7 [url]

Jan 5 04 2:03 PM

Aha,

Then you have the issue of Air Superiority, and Off-Table Artillery....(What a can of worms....

Methinks a blanket 50 pts per blip (sic) for arty and air....for the most basic (i.e. the 1, or 2 on the d6 roll, going to 100 points for the 3/4 on the d6, and 200 for the 5/6 roll......)
So if you want your agra's you will be paying for a lot of troops worth, and it still might not hit the target...

The joys of a pointed match.....

Evil Dick ;-)

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#8 [url]

Jan 5 04 3:42 PM

Just to throw my penny-worth in.
Don't see the logic of the points for a 105mm being 90, and a Priest or Wespe being 100. As a 105mm with truck would be 105pts whereas a Priest/Wespe is cheaper, dosen't have to limber/unlimber and has armour to boot.
If all guns came with inherent soft skin transport the points system would seem to make more sense.

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#9 [url]

Jan 5 04 9:34 PM

Hi Dave,

That is the sort of thing I was thinking of, perhaps even the first set of pts for Russians & others and the second (cheaper) pts for Germans etc to retain some national characteristics. This would allow some flexibility for scenario writers/players when designing armies.

I agree with Evil Dick that a discussion of points can open a can of worms, but I think the points work well for our gaming so far. I actually like the random element of the roll for off-board artillery, it adds a bit of fun (we reroll on a 6). It seems to be infrequent however that off-board artillery justifies the pts spent on it - it deviates and misses the target. Air-power for 150 pts is quality, Tiger tanks just blow-up.

Re Simon's penny-worth, my Russian's are going to invest in some horse limbers (which currently have no pts cost) to move my guns.

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DCRBrown

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#10 [url]

Jan 6 04 11:02 AM

Andy,

Ok I'll work along the lines suggested for points costs for each nations HQ's and their inherant abilities. As for off board arty missions points cost this is being addressed as we speak, taking into account nationality and year/availability.

ED,
Yes you hit upon the "joys" of a equal matched points system! Of course one method to avoid what you suggest is to omit the random die roll for off board arty and air missions altogether and simply allow players to buy such missions with their points.

Simon,
Include the cost of a tow in gun points value.

All,
Many of these points ammedments will be appearing in Scenarios Vol. 1 Battles for the West shortly to go to the publishers. So if you have any further suggestions, or have spotted any inconsistencies, let me know ASAP.

DB

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#11 [url]

Jan 6 04 1:15 PM

Well since we are talking about inconsistencies.....
How about the fact artillery seems to miss 66% of the time.....even when you have a dedicated FOO.
Foo's would shoot spotter rounds...watch for fall of shot. adjust, fire another spotter round, and either Fire for Effect or Hold fire.....
Admittedly other spotting units would not be able to do this, so the table makes some sort of sense. But even so those are high odds at missing, even after rolling for connection through to the Arty.
However with the FOO, they have more training in this, and would also be attached to a dedicated battery......(therefore once they have a battery type assigned, then they cannot change (which would be a single battery), - unless for example trying to get that all elusive Agra across the comlink...aargh)

I.M.H.O. The agra was only used for pre-op, and emergency use to break up massive german formations......still it is a bit of fun, watching it fall down on a nicely packed target

Evil Dick ;-)

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DCRBrown

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#12 [url]

Jan 7 04 12:06 PM

All,

Proposed draft points cost for HQ's - comments?

GERMAN 1939-1944 & BRITISH/US 1941-45
Excellent HQ = 250. Average HQ = 150. Poor HQ = 75

RUSSIAN 1939-44, OTHER 1939-45
Excellent HQ = 400. Average HQ = 200. Poor HQ = 100

BRITISH 1940, GERMAN & RUSSIAN 1945
Excellent HQ = 350. Average HQ = 200. Poor HQ = 100

Excellent = +2 modifier, Average = +1 modifier, Poor = no modifier.

As ammended.
DB

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#13 [url]

Jan 8 04 4:57 PM

My immediate thought is that there should be no cost associated with having a poor HQ.
Only if you wanted to 'upgrade' your HQ to average or excellent should you have to pay for it.
Simon

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DCRBrown

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#16 [url]

Jan 21 04 4:24 PM

All,

Any thoughts on the following points costs?

OFF BOARD ARTILLERY AND AIR MISSIONS POINTS COST PER YEAR
The following points cost may be used to purchase Off Board Artillery and Air missions.
Players now have the choice to either dispense with the random die roll to obtain off board artillery and air missions, (p 13-3.5 & p.14-3.6) and simply purchase them through the points system instead or use the points system to solely buy additional dedicated missions.

NATIONALITY
GERMAN 1939-1944, BRITISH/US 1941-45, RUSSIAN 1945
ARTILLERY MISSION COST = 30

GERMAN 1945, BRITISH 1940, RUSSIAN 1943-44
ARTILLERY MISSION COST = 40

RUSSIAN 1939-42, OTHER 1939-45 ARTILLERY MISSION COST = 50


NATIONALITY
GERMAN 1939-1944, BRITISH/US 1941-45, RUSSIAN 1945
AIR MISSION COST = 120

GERMAN 1945, BRITISH 1940, RUSSIAN 1943-44
AIR MISSION COST = 150

RUSSIAN 1939-42, OTHER 1939-45 AIR MISSION COST = 175


DB

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#17 [url]

Feb 5 04 10:51 PM

Points costs for off table support

Hi Dave / all

I haven't posted on these pages before but have gamed (fairly) regularly against several of the other forum members.

First off I'd like to say that I think this system is excellent and your continued support via these pages really is appreciated.

With regard to the present topic I'm glad you have decided to adjust the off table support issues, anything given for 'free' in a points game threatens to unhinge the otherwise careful points balance. As a result in our games we tend to ditch the tables and assign support as for the scenario.

However it would be nice on occasion to allow the players a completely free hand and so if using the tables will there still be a roll for the type of support. If so would you consider limiting this by year and/or size of game. I.e. a small company size action would very rarely justify the divisional support a nebelwerfer battery would constitute. A battalions 120mm heavy mortar would seem far more appropriate.

Finally would the points be for dedicated missions as that does seem a little low. It would cost the Germans more to build a barbed wire fence than to use a 150mm hummel strike !!!

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DCRBrown

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#18 [url]

Feb 25 04 12:20 PM

DS,

Your point regarding limiting the larger calibre arty types to certain scenarios is a very good point, however to lay down rules on this would require quite a few tables given the wide variety of possible scenario types, while it's also probably unnecessary as players are quite free to do this themselves, if they wish.

E. G. - Introduce a -1 or -2 modifier to the Artillery Type die roll depending on how limited the scenario is.
Thus a small company action would incur the -2 modifier.
A company(+) action the -1 moidfier.

So a small company action scenario would limit say, Germans, to 105mm arty at best, while any roll of 0 or less could be regarded as standard 81mm mortar support.

As for the points cost of wire, etc, they are all deliberately expensive as such defensive measures tended to be limited to static defensive lines that had been in place for some time. If wire were dirt cheap I think we'd see it in all scenarios! Obviously if recreating a historical scenario based on a well prepared defensive line players should agree beforehand on the amount of points availble to the defender to spend on defensive works.

DB

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